The Terrifying Truth Behind Tick Bites and Lyme Disease

 with Tick Expert and Entomologist Larry Dapsis

We are thrilled to share our latest interview with Larry Dapsis, a distinguished entomologist and tick prevention expert. In this interview, Larry shares his extensive knowledge about tick protection and the innovative prevention education methods he developed, significantly reducing tick-borne diseases in Barnstable County.

Larry’s Career

Larry’s career journey is a testament to his dedication to the field. He began in agriculture, focusing on vegetable crop management at UMass Amherst, and later worked in consumer product development. Larry spent 24 years with Ocean Spray Cranberries, where his research saved farms and improved profitability. In 2010, he made a significant career shift to public health, becoming the Deer Tick Project Coordinator and Entomologist for Barnstable County, Massachusetts, where he focused on preventing tick-borne diseases. Although retired now, Larry continues his commitment to spreading awareness about tick-borne diseases and prevention tips.

Community Outreach and Educational Workshops

One of Larry's significant contributions is his community outreach program. He emphasized the importance of face-to-face education, conducting around 120 workshops a year on topics ranging from tick prevention to pollination ecology and forensic entomology. His brand motto "Deer Ticks: One Bite Can Change Your Life" resonated deeply with the community, emphasizing the critical need to prevent tick bites.

Acorn Production and Tick Populations

An intriguing aspect of Larry’s research is the connection between acorn production and tick populations. Larry explains that the population of ticks in any given year is influenced by the size of the acorn crop two years prior. A large acorn crop leads to an increase in rodent populations, which in turn supports a higher tick population. This ecological insight highlights the complex interactions within ecosystems and their impact on public health.

The "Send a Tick to College" Program

Larry introduced the "Send a Tick to College" program, encouraging people to send ticks to UMass Amherst for testing. This initiative provides accurate data on tick-borne pathogens, helping doctors make informed decisions about treatment. Larry emphasizes the importance of accurate tick testing, which can guide medical professionals and patients in addressing tick-borne diseases more effectively.

Permethrin-Treated Clothing and Tick Prevention

One of the most effective tools in tick prevention, according to Larry, is permethrin-treated clothing and footwear. This treatment is highly effective in killing ticks on contact and provides long-lasting protection. Larry's advocacy for permethrin-treated clothing has led to its widespread adoption in Barnstable County, significantly reducing tick bites and associated diseases.

Addressing Myths About Ticks

Larry addresses common myths about ticks, such as the belief that ticks fall from trees. He explains that ticks are ambush predators that wait for their prey on the ground or low vegetation. Understanding tick behavior is essential in developing effective prevention strategies.

Impact of Climate Change on Tick Populations

Climate change is another factor impacting tick populations and the spread of tick-borne diseases. Larry discusses how changes in temperature and precipitation patterns can influence tick activity and distribution. He notes that while warmer temperatures may increase tick activity, changes in precipitation could either positively or negatively impact tick populations.

Final Thoughts and Future Projects

Larry's work has left a lasting impact on public health in Barnstable County and beyond. As he continues to share his expertise, Larry remains committed to educating people about tick prevention and public health. His innovative programs and dedication serve as an inspiration to many, demonstrating the profound difference that one person can make in the fight against tick-borne diseases.

Additional Resources

Shop Insect Shield's full assortment of repellent clothing

Transcript of the Interview

Mary: Okay,

Lary: veteran in this stuff.

Mary: Okay. It's nice. It's actually not so sunny. I usually get a big glare. Okay. You ready?

Lary: I am ready.

Mary: Okay. Hey, this is Mary from Insect Shield and I am so excited to finally have our long awaited guest, Larry Dapsis. Larry recently retired a deer tick program Barnstable County which most would know as the Cape Cod region. Welcome Larry.

Lary: Thank you, Mary. It is a pleasure to finally be able to collaborate with you and your company on what I have learned to love doing which is outreach and extension. My career has been, I've been a professional entomologist for 45 years. A pretty good run. But what a lot of people don't realize is that while they take in a lot of information about prevention of tick borne diseases, most of my career has been spent in agriculture.

So I started out in vegetable crop management at UMass Amherst, and then I did some consumer product development for a couple companies like Richardson and Vicks and those firms, the Black Flag Label. And then I joined Ocean Spray Cranberries, where I was, uh, the bug guy initially for North America.

So I was covering everywhere, and then they threw in Florida grapefruit because I didn't have enough to do.

Mary: So were you helping, so you were helping keep the crops bug free?

Lary: Absolutely. Yeah, actually, I was literally in some regions saving farms. They were in Oregon, Washington and parts of British Columbia. They were being overrun by an insect, black vine weevil and the university and government scientists couldn't really nail it down and help the growers. And they were hanging on by their fingernails.

So I did a lot of research and I brought that insect to its, literally to its knees. And then In areas of the country like Wisconsin and New Jersey and Massachusetts where people weren't being overrun by certain problems. My research actually helped improve on farm profitability. But after 24 years at Ocean Spray, I did everything except make juice. And so then it was time to move on. And my career path made a hard left turn from agriculture into public health. And notably the prevention of tick borne diseases. As a county entomologist, I was expected to cover, ants to yellow jackets. So I, I kinda was there as a resource for the general public, but what I was charged with is that since, since.

Things like Lyme disease is endemic throughout the northeast and mid Atlantic states in the upper central Midwest. For Massachusetts, we were number five in the country in terms of incidence rate when I was hired. So we were at ground zero, especially here on Cape Cod. And what I basically found myself initially on a vertical learning curve because I had heard of Lyme disease, but to be honest, like a lot of people we don't know a lot about it.

We just know it, it occurs but I had no idea that this was actually a public health crisis. And in terms of talking to people that have been chronically ill I've met people that have been sick for, 10, 20, 20 plus years because they weren't diagnosed correctly early on or treated correctly.

And it just turns people lives inside out. So initially coming from a

Mary: Can I interrupt? What year were you start? So what year did you go to the public health?

Lary: I, that would have been 14 years ago.

Mary: So we're talking around 2010. So

Lary: Yeah.

Mary: are becoming, it's more of a conversation around ticks. People are really starting to realize that ticks are spreading disease or is it still a little like uncertain and people aren't sure?

Lary: People know especially on Cape Cod,

They know it's a big problem. They just don't have solutions. They're afraid to go outside, literally. And so my job was to basically put a program in place to mitigate that. And And so we do, printed, materials and we have, a website with a lot of information, including a 10 part video series I made but the real inroads for our program was really made through, face to face outreach.

So I've done, I was doing probably 120 workshops a year. And if you think about Cape Cod, that's 15 towns, okay. And so it wasn't all on ticks because I do workshops on pollination ecology, edible insects, and actually one of the more popular ones in the last few years was a program on forensic entomology, using bugs to solve crimes.

Mary: Okay. That's a, we, that's another video conversation. Cause that sounds

Lary: Oh, it's fascinating. Very popular at the senior centers. But what I found is that face to face and then giving us a brand because I know the importance of having a banner that you can message under. And I came up with the brand deer ticks, one bite can change your life. And that message has resonated with a lot of people.

And that's what I stress people. It's okay, if there's the medical side of this, that's really complicated and controversial. So I've, my message to people is, let's prevent the tick bite in the first place.

Because if you get a tick bite, and you're not feeling good, and you walk into a doctor's office, the outcome is not certain, and that should scare the daylights out of you.

In, in my programs, I will, I guarantee I will get your attention up front, I will draw you in and I will I will be scary, but then I will masterfully reassure you that all is not lost. With this, tick bites and things like Lyme disease and all these other diseases that are associated with ticks, they're preventable, and it's not.

We're not building the space shuttle. It's the steps that we are implementing with people are pretty easy to absorb and easy to implement, but you have to get through some psychological barriers, okay? And so getting people to focus on, changing behavior slightly and doing things that they're not wanting to think about using chemicals as a way to prevent these things.

But so we go through, we paint the landscape, what's going on what do we need to do? And then we talk about performance because in, in the 13 years I was working the extension area I did get a report card on our program, and I had received a call from a doctor at the Harvard School of Medicine.

Okay, that's not a lightweight institution. And they were studying trends in diseases, and when they got to Lyme, they were very confused. And so David said, when we started looking at Massachusetts, we saw Barnstable County as an outlier. Barnstable County is the only county in the state where the incidence rate of Lyme is not going up.

And he said, so whatever you're doing, Larry, keep doing it because people are listening they're implementing your recommendations and we see it in the cases it's

Mary: I would get, I would, is it one of the only counties in the country where actually, tick borne disease or Lyme is decreasing. It's really astounding a public health campaign to work like this. Everyone has got to be jealous. Say what have you done that we can you know, take to our community.

Lary: I think there are areas now that, that would like to model. Our program but you have to be willing to expend resources like we have a county form of government, which gives us an advantage. So we have, cooperative extension not every county in a state like Massachusetts is structured like that, but it's something if you think it through, it's solvable.

So I'm of the mind that counties, especially where Lyme is endemic, and we have other ticks and tick borne diseases as well but having an on the ground resource that can get in people's faces because what I have found, Mary, is that this program isn't really difficult, but it's sweat equity.

You just have to be willing to put in the time and also make sure that you, have, you're following communications plans that make sense. So what I learned at Ocean Spray is that you develop the message and manage the message so that everything you do is consistent with every single audience and every time you engage them.

So it's a matter of just repetition so that if people hear it often enough then it's like light bulbs go on.

Mary: The thing I love here too, cause you're coming from the public health and the entomology side, but you also understand marketing and branding where I think many people in your position are really just coming from the science side.

Lary: Exactly, exactly.

Mary: but often it's maybe not as compelling and just, just the way that you communicate, how important that is to draw people in, not just having a, make sure you wear your treated product or have your spray and kind of

Lary: Sure, if you look at a lot of other extension programs that are academic based they're fairly dry and they don't come alive. The things don't jump off the page, and actually, there are extension programs that are just perpetuating dogma. That so not all the information that's getting out through universities say is necessarily correct or relevant or practical.

Mary: That's the thing I see just so often. Maybe not on that side, but just like on TV, you'll see, Oh, there's a report, be careful for ticks. And all it talks about is. What happens when you get a tick? They never give any tips on how to avoid ticks. It's Oh, be watch for them. And if you get one, make sure you remove it or even check your doctor.

But never like, how do you not get a tick bite?

Lary: The media, they write stories all the time and it's and so they do put out recommendations. Use bug spray. What the heck does that mean? Give a little bit more detail on what exactly constitute a bug spray that you can rely upon, but also bug sprays that are on the market that are completely ineffective.

And so there are snake oil products out there and I have to really get into the heads of soccer moms and soccer dads about their kids. Because when you look at the statistics. Kids under the age of 10 in Massachusetts and really in other endemic areas have the highest incidence rate of Lyme around, followed by people age 55 and older.

So that tells me that everything we've been doing up to this point in time for our children, it's not working. The data's there. So my my motivation to for parents is that, , there are things we can do to protect our kids. You just have to have an open mind and be willing to do that. And these all natural repellents from botanical oils and those things, for one, they're not EPA registered products, okay?

So they don't have to have, show any evidence that they work at all. But if you look at a product, a skin ellant like Dek. If the label says it repels ticks for 6 hours, there are data on file in EPA to support that claim. So it's a buyer beware sort of market. So I, I tell people those all natural products, the Federal Trade Commission should just swoop in.

They're fraudulent. They should be taken off the market.

Mary: Yeah, no, I've seen some of that because there's no proof. There's, we were talking some lavender oil. Someone's Oh, I love my lavender and it works. And I said, that's great. But the problem is next time you buy the same one, It may actually be different because no one's checking or no one, you don't have to confirm that lavender oil is the same in every bottle that every, in that brand.

So yeah, one batch may work for you, but the next one actually may not even have lavender oil. It may be more chamomile or something.

Lary: So I, I get a bit more direct on that message with parents in particular, that if you're using these all natural products, you're dodging bullets with your children's life. And I can't even, I can't be more direct than that.

Mary: Yeah. Okay, let's get into that a bit. So talk to me. So you are going to meet with a, at a community center and an overview of what you propose to people to help protect them from ticks. And obviously what you're telling them is working because we've seen the numbers in Barnesville County.

Lary: sure. What I discovered early on I was researching repellents. And I, when I got to Permethrin as a repellent to treat fabric sew clothing and footwear. And when I started working with that product and doing assays with ticks, what I discovered, which blew me away, is that if a tick is on a Permethrin treated fabric surface for 60 seconds.

It's guaranteed to die. And as Martha says, that's a good thing. So death is an instant. It might take 5 minutes, 10 minutes, a little bit longer. But the outcome is guaranteed. And what I found is that permethrin treated clothing and footwear is the most effective tool in the box. And so what I went on a campaign on distribution because you couldn't find the product.

So I convinced all the major garden centers on the Cape to carry Permethrin. And as you know is marketing, you do store checks. You're trying to find out what's going on. And as I check in with the garden centers, okay, we have product on shelf. How are sales? And based on our outreach messaging it's flying off the shelf.

In fact, garden centers have told me now that they're out of stock more than in stock. So the product is getting out there because I've made people very comfortable with the fact that you can use this. And initially, that was difficult. I'd go to a library or a community center. And be talking about, permethrin treated clothing and footwear and parents would be looking at me like I'm absolutely crazy.

And you're, Larry, you're telling me to put my kids in clothing treated with a synthetic chemical pesticide, and I nod my head, absolutely true. I am. I don't give ground on this. Remember that slide about. Kids under the age of 10 have the highest incidence rate of Lyme. We got to rethink our game plan. So then I get into the fact that, all right One, you're not going to become a toxicologist through social media.

That's, you're not going to learn the

Mary: Many.

people think they, they are and they can be, we know,

Lary: Yeah, with social media, misinformation flies fast and far. And so what what I tell people is that a basic tenet of modern toxicology, it's not the molecule that makes the poison, it's the dose that makes the poison. How much you're exposed to, what was the route of exposure, was it dermal, was it oral, was it inhalation, makes a difference.

And if you look at the basic toxicity of a chemical like permethrin, It's over 2, 000 times more toxic to a tick than a person. Ticks are little, people are big, it doesn't take a whole lot to knock them off. And the other resource I point people to, if you don't believe me don't go on social media for, a lesson in toxicology.

Go to the National Pesticide Information Center. NPIC, there's a website, and that's a collaboration between the EPA and Oregon State University. And so if you go to that website and put in any active ingredient at all, it'll pull up the skinny. It is a repository for the data and what they've done is that they've taken those data and transformed them into.

very understandable fact sheets. They are extremely well written. So I push people there. If you really want to know the skinny, I'll give you the executive summary, but if you want to do a deeper dive, that's the place you go. And then I get into, other aspects of this chemical that, that it has exceptionally low mammalian toxicity to Kitty cats are the exception.

They just, they're, they don't detoxify that. But everybody else does.

Mary: and actually let me jump in on that because one thing we do, people say, Oh, I know permethrin is is dangerous with cats. And we, yes, absolutely. One thing we say with, if you have, you're treating your own product or you have, pre treated product. there's not liquid. So once it's on the fabric and the textile and dried,

Lary: Once it's dry. Once it's dry.

Mary: So that's where we say, be certain if you're going to spray your own product, yeah, make sure the cats are not there or the cats don't come with liquid permethrin, but the dried permethrin on an item is not a danger to a cat.

Lary: And that's one of the virtues of this chemical is that it has very low dermal absorption. And whatever small amounts absorbed is absorbed. is detoxified within a couple hours. That's not true of every insecticide. So a phosphate like malathion, you get that on your skin, it's instantly in your bloodstream on its way to your nervous system.

But with these pyrethroids like permethrin, the dermal absorption is low. The other thing I point out that's I think significant is that EPA now, they developed a position. They have reasonable certainty. That permethrin exposure, or permethrin treated clothing poses no harm to infants, children, pregnant women, and then they extend that to nursing mothers.

And their criteria would certainly be conservative. And that's just because dermal absorption thing. But The almost, the final thing I'd point out is National Research Council. That's a pretty heavyweight organization. And they recognized that permethrin treated clothing, like insect shield, was originally developed for the military.

And so they said, we're going to have people in this treated clothing for extended periods of time. What are the implications? So in their assessment, they were looking at people wearing permethrin treated Clothing head, head to toe 18 hours a day, every single day for 10 years. And when they rolled up that aggregate exposure, they saw no reason to for an adverse effect.

And I think that's compelling.

And the last thing I point out to people is that permethrin is the active ingredient that you would slather on an infant at a much higher concentration for scabies mug. And Permethrin is the active ingredient used to treat head lice, which is making a comeback in our school system.

So from my standpoint as a scientist, when I look at Permethrin and the toxicology, and what I see as a very low risk cup, and then when I weigh that against the consequences of one of these tick borne diseases, for me that is really easy math, okay? I wouldn't hesitate. to put my kids in treated clothing.

And so I tell people that, especially in an area like Massachusetts where tick activity is year round. There, there are 365 days a year of potential tick exposure. And that's a myth, and we can talk about that later, that perceptions that people have about,

because

questions I get from people in the media, say, Larry, when's tick season? And my answer is it started January 1st and goes to December 31st. So anytime temperatures are above freezing and there's no snow cover, yeah you're, you can be exposed to ticks and exposure to a tick borne disease. And for deer ticks here, we're, we have not only Lyme, but emerging diseases like Babesiosis and Anaplasmosis and relapsing fever.

And more recently we discovered Powassan virus in our tick populations. It it's something you have to be vigilant about. And I tell people you're going to be on, be mindful year round, but during the summer months when a particular stage of the tick is out there, the nymph stage tick they're the size of a poppy seed.

So they can elude a tick check. Pretty easily, and so that stage during the summer months is responsible for 85 percent of all of our tick borne diseases. Be, pay attention year round, but really be on our guard during the summer months. As we present our program in a simple fashion. Tick checks and permethrin treated clothing and footwear, You do that, you've reduced your chances of getting a tick bite by 90%.

Okay pretty good odds. And then if you consider doing a perimeter yard spray, that further reduces exposure risk. And pet protection, one, two, three. It's not that hard.

Mary: Yeah. No, that's what we, it isn't. It's just what you've been able to do is taking that public health message and have people make the change and have people be proactive. And that's the hardest thing I think

for any of us.

Lary: it's like we're, I'm trying to get through a psychological barrier, not a toxicology barrier.

Mary: So you recommend, so generally, obviously having some prevention, having protection, using permethrin, using pre treated clothing, spraying your own product. Having permethrin on your textile item. And I, one thing I do want to bring up again, I, which I love that you mentioned the safety and the low dose.

Cause one thing we find, yes, pretreated clothing has no cautions or warnings, the EPA, but obviously your liquid permethrin that you're going to spray on your own product, there has to be a warning or caution because it's liquid and, kid can spray it in their eye or something, but one thing people come back to me, they say you're, The label says, do not put on your skin.

And I say it's, and I'll get this also from you. They, I say it's because it doesn't work. If it goes on your skin, it needs a textile to hold on to. There's no danger if you by mistake, Oh, I forgot. That's my permethrin, not my topical repellent. And some got on my hand. It's just because it won't work because permethrin needs to hold on to a fabric.

Lary: Well, people ask about, can I spray this on my skin? And I say the permethrin's not gonna hurt you. It's, but it's in a, it's in a solvent based system. So those, the solvents will just, heh, irritate the daylights out of your skin. The permethrin's not gonna be impactful but you, you really don't want solvents on your skin.

So that's really where the warning comes from about the liquid sprays but I tell people that if you want something for your skin, DEET or an alternative like Picaridin, perfectly acceptable. And but treated clothing and treating footwear is mission critical. Because those nymph stage of the ticks, they're down in the leaf litter.

The first place they attach to are your shoes. So if you treat your own clothing it, it'll keep its activity for about 45 days before you have to retreat or six washings. And I tell people treat your footwear once a month.

Put it in your phone calendar as a reoccurring appointment to remind you.

But the nice part about the pre treated clothing from Insect Shield, Yeah, 70 washings. Basically the life of the garment that is active. And I tell people that the third way you can skin this cat is you can take your favorite gardening clothing Send it to Insect Shields, and they'll treat it, and it's a nominal fee, what is it, like 10 bucks a garment?

And they'll send it back to you with the 70 washings claim. And that's the final point I make with people is that when you look at extension websites and even the CDC, pictures that are misleading. They're accurate, but misleading. They say, stay to the center of the trail, that the ticks aren't there, but once you get into vegetation you, you run exposure risk.

So it suggests that you have to go to a state park to get a tick bite. But surveillance research in Connecticut showed that two thirds of the people that were submitting ticks For identification and testing, cut them from their own backyards. So ticks and gardening are the perfect marriage, alright?

So you don't have to go really anywhere,

Mary: Yeah, no, I think that's a great point, because it is always, the stay on the center of the trail is like one of the top tips, and it's I'm in my neighborhood, or I'm just taking the dog for a walk, and and

Lary: Yeah, exactly. I just want to share one experience with you. I did buy a pair of khakis from Insect Shield, and when I received them, I think it was September or October, so I put them on, and I and our office is on a farm, and so I immediately went outside and started walking into the brush, and I'm watching ticks attached to my pants, and they're starting to crawl up, and I'm watching them very closely, And after about 30 seconds, they stopped walking and in looking further, they were lifting their legs alternately.

Like they were getting a hot foot. They were on something they didn't like. And after about another 30 seconds, they just started falling off. It was like a tick water slide. I was just, I was so impressed. I said, okay, we've got the tool.

Mary: Excellent.

Lary: To get a, to get a grip on this problem. And and so I've been in a There was a documentary that was made about me by the Boston Picture Group called Tick Days.

And the filmmaker, she positioned me as part detective, part evangelist. And so I bring my messaging Out into the public in a big way and with a lot of enthusiasm and I am, I'm just so like happy that I can be put in a position to help people prevent these horrible things. It was one thing helping farmers save their crop but saving lives that just takes things to another level.

And I feel very good about what we've accomplished.

Mary: No it's amazing. And I think your expertise and experience obviously has resonated with folks as well. And one, a couple more things. One thing just about tick behavior. Cause as you said, ticks are low. And that's one thing that we've struggled with communicating with some of our other experts as well as a lot of people are, have believed ticks fall from trees.

And I know that there's many. Little insects that look a lot like ticks. You could probably, you could, I'm sure, identify a tick very easily, I think, and I could and I probably look at more ticks than most people, but a lot of people are a hundred percent sure that ticks are falling from trees. What is your belief on that?

Lary: It's rubbish. And when I deal with that point and on

Mary: you heard this as well? Have people come

Lary: Oh yeah

I

hear a lot of things. And I tell people like let's consider tick biology for a second, deer tick biology. They're an ambush predator. They wait for dinner to come to them. And deer ticks are blind.

Okay, they wait they rely upon chemical cues like the carbon dioxide you're exhaling to know you're in the area. And if you're a blind ambush predator that needs to have dinner bump up against it, it makes no sense to be up in a tree because the likelihood of you getting dinner is pretty much nil.

So chicks Nymph stage ticks are down in the leaf litter. Adult stage ticks might be on vegetation, maybe two feet off the ground. So ticks start low, but then they will keep, they will climb up until they find a spot to pick and choose dinner. And it might be your neck, your ears or elsewhere, but.

But, where clothing becomes restrictive behind your knees and tics I joke with people that tics do enjoy the dining ambience of one's private parts. So when you're doing a tic check, you have to be very thorough. Yeah.

Mary: one thing I believe there are many lookalike insects that do live in the trees and can fall down.

Lary: Sure. Yeah, there, there are, stink bugs, and there's a host of different things. that, that are small and, round shaped and and one of the, we have tools online that show tics, including relative sizes, and one of the resources I, I use when I do middle schools is UMass Amherst has temporary tic tattoos that I bring

Mary: Oh, I've seen those. Yeah.

Lary: So kids can see exactly, the sizes of those, but when I describe it to people, it's bagel toppings. An adult stage deer tick is about the size of a sesame seed. And even with my failing bifocals, I can see something that, that large, but those nymph stage ticks, yeah, the size of a poppy seed.

So something that small with eight legs, a bad attitude. that can plant you on your butt for a very long time. So it's a watch out. And then tick larvae, I mean, you practically can't see them. But the thing about tick larvae, which is the stage that when the eggs hatch in, say, early August they're clean.

They do not have disease. They have to feed on an infected host like a mouse or a chipmunk. in their first blood meal to pick up these pathogens. And what we have found in our assessment of the landscape about exposure risk, is that with these deer ticks the adult stage ticks, about 50 percent of them are packing that bug that causes Lyme.

About 20%, for the other pathogens. And the nymph stage ticks about 20 percent infected. And of significance, and this is scary too the level of co infection, we see about 10 percent of the ticks on Cape Cod, this is probably reflective of other endemic areas are carrying more than one pathogen.

We've seen, we get ticks tested in a, at a lab at UMass Amherst. We have a program called Send a Tick to College at UMass Amherst. If you unfortunately do get a tick bite, it's worth sending out to the lab. Oh yeah, send a tick to college. We have t

Mary: Adore. I love that.

Lary: And

Mary: think that's such a great thing. And we, cause we've worked yeah, actually it's with. The group at UMass Amherst, we went and did a video and showed how they did the testing, but we said, I don't think people realize that. And it's such a great tool to have the tick identified and to actually see if it's carrying any pathogens.

And then you can have some knowledge when you go into the doctor, if you need to go to the doctor if there is, it indeed is positive for any pathogens.

Lary: and that's how I sell it to people that if you get the tick tested unlike human blood tests for Lyme, this test is 99. 9 percent accurate. Okay? And so for the patient, These are hard data that you can show to a doctor and say hey, I was potentially exposed to this and maybe even this.

And for a doctor that's on their game, they can look at those data and start to figure out what should be the clinical presentation I should be looking for in my patients. And the Cape medical community initially, they, when I, talked about tick testing. They were lukewarm on the subject, but I've had some people tell me, Larry, my doctor told me that they weren't going to do anything till they get a copy of the tick report from UMass before they consider doing anything.

So we're making some progress even in the medical community.

Mary: Yeah, that's great. I know

Lary: But I tell people don't get the tick bite in the first

Mary: exactly, that is the number one goal. As we discussed earlier, the two of us could talk for hours about ticks, and excitingly, we're gonna be doing some projects in the future, so the insect shield community will be seeing more. Of you, which we're very excited about.

Lary: Oh, I'm excited too.

Mary: and I guess to finish up and you may have touched on it before, but we always good to as you said, you got to keep hammering the message home. When you talk to people, what's the number one myth that you like to debunk that most people think about?

Lary: Oh, sure. I used to get calls from the media and this question comes up like, Larry, we had a really cold winter. What did that do to the tick population? And it's like wishful thinking because people know when we get our first hard frost, mosquito season's done. And that's a fact. And Massachusetts winters, I point out to people that you may think they're really cold here, but let me tell you.

When I worked for Ocean Spray, I spent 24 years traveling to Wisconsin. They have real winters. 25 below zero for extended periods of time is not unusual. And in Wisconsin, deer ticks are very healthy and Wisconsin's very endemic for Lyme. And the reason for this is that ticks have a little trick that they synthesize a chemical called glycerol.

What the heck is glycerol? These guys make antifreeze, okay? How clever is that? A cold winter is not going to touch these creatures at all. So they are a perfectly engineered little package. So as a biologist, I can look at it and say, I'm quite amazed at biologically how these things are put together and how they've evolved over time.

Mary: What are they doing in the winter? Are they just burrowing down and

Lary: Yeah, they're down in the leaf litter and then as temperatures get up above freezing and there's no snow cover, they're up and active. So I've now people don't tend to raise that question anymore. I will tell you the last couple years, especially from the media, is that with climate change, Larry, what does the future look like for climate, with climate change?

Ticks and tick borne diseases and I I make a bold statement on this front. I tell people in the media in particular because it's a very news worthy topic right now. I tell people the future is going to be different. I can't tell you exactly how. But let's look at different scenarios if we get warmer and warmer.

So let's say we have more and more days where temperatures are above freezing. That will increase our exposure risk. But if climate change changes precipitation patterns dramatically one way or another, let's say things get very dry. That'll lead to less tick activity. If we get more frequent precipitation and it raises overall ambient humidity that'll be in favor of the ticks.

So it and actually if you extend this further into the ecosystem climate change, if it impacts, say, oak tree phenology and acorn production, because what a lot of people have a hard time getting their mind around, is that The population of ticks this year is based on the size of the acorn crop two years ago.

Okay? Yeah that's a tough one. So I tell

Mary: how's that work?

Lary: Yeah it's fascinating. I derive a lot of this from a colleague of mine, Rick Ostfeld at the Cary Institute of Ecological Studies in New York. Brilliant mentor for me. And so the way this plays out is that you get a crop of acorns and let's say it's a huge, a mass year of acorns.

What you will see is a spike in the rodent population the following year.

Mary: the rodents, okay.

Lary: mice and chipmunks. And so then the year after that, you will see an increase in the tick population. So it goes up and down, but it's a two year cycle. That's what I love about being an ecologist is that everything is connected.

Mary: Yeah, and that's, I think, one thing I've, some of my other experts have mentioned is the myth that it's deer, because they're deer ticks, deer that are always carrying, but, It's really the mice that are probably the number one,

Lary: Yeah. The population of deer is not a predictor of tick populations in the future. Rick Ostfeld shared 14 years of data with me, but we saw that in our own research. If you look at say Nantucket versus Cape Cod. We don't have a lot of deer on Cape Cod. We have about maybe 10 per square mile tops on Nantucket.

They have 50 per square mile. They're everywhere. Do you see 5 times higher density of ticks on Nantucket versus Cape Cod? It's about the same. Okay? So deer, they supply blood meals, but it's really the rodent population that determines what that population is going to be the following year.

Mary: Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. I hadn't heard that one before. We will talk more and we just love the way you share your information and it's so great that you've really, you're making a difference and you've made a difference and the people of Cape Cod and Barnstable County have a lot to thank you for and your efforts and it's great that they're Actually making changes to their life and protecting themselves from potentially very bad

Lary: I, I left a lot there but now as I'm freelancing. And so I hope to extend these messages out in other venues in different parts of my state, but also different parts of the country where. tick borne diseases are endemic. So I think through, through efforts like what you guys are doing I think our information is going to find its way to a broader audience.

Mary: It's wonderful. Thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate hearing everything that you've done and sharing your knowledge.

Lary: Oh, my pleasure. I just, this is what I do, Mary.

Mary: Wonderful. All right. Thank you so much, Larry.

Lary: Very good. Thank you.